Hi Sebastian,

Found your blog a while ago via HN; you seem like someone who has either though these questions through carefully, or would like to.

You mention "good" a lot in your writing, and allude to values which you ostensibly find good. How do you determine which values are the ones to live your life by, and having determined them, at least in part, are they set for life? If not, does changing them devalue them?

Unless you base your values on those of some specific culture or society, you are picking and choosing anyway. Why not just become a complete hedonist? Even if you delay gratification, you are still a hedonist if what you do is for yourself. And if not for yourself, for whom?

Staying consistent and meaningful in any sort of value system other than hedonism seems impossible. The sole value you might take could be happiness–"whatever makes me happy is good"–and the only problems you might have would be balancing short-term satisfaction and long-term satisfaction. That is unsatisfying to me from a philosophical angle, and a pragmatic one: because it's not how society likes us to think, it is harder to get along with the rest of the tribe.

It's a frustrating problem for me, and to it I attribute my general lack of direction and inertia. Getting past it is what I've been working on more than anything else these past few years. I would appreciate, and be interested in, any perspective you may be able to offer.

Cheers,
I

Hey I,

Thanks for dropping me a line. Fantastic email and very good questions.

I see basically five questions here -

1. How do you determine which values are the ones to live your life by?

2. Are your values set for life? If not, how to change them?

3. Why not just become a complete hedonist?

4. Even if you delay gratification, you are still a hedonist if what you do is for yourself. And if not for yourself, for whom?

5. It's a frustrating problem for me, and to it I attribute my general lack of direction and inertia. ... I would appreciate, and be interested in, any perspective you may be able to offer.

1. How do you determine which values are the ones to live your life by?

Slowly.

I put my ethics and values together slowly.

I think most people struggle with getting an ethical system or value system because they're looking for one overarching principle that makes everything else make sense. Frankly, I don't think there is one. Even if you did have a clear single core goal - like to follow a particular organized religion as perfectly as you could - there's still lots of judgments and areas you'll have to study and evaluate. Even if you had a core, overriding, most important, overarching goal... there'd still be lots of other questions to resolve.

So you put your ethics together slowly. At least, I did, and it seemed to work.

The first thing I recommend is getting a clear understanding of cause and effect, and the outcomes of different actions. For instance, you might think "trust" is a good ethic, and if you trust people, things will work out. However, you discover quickly that people either forget or lie later when there's no written contracts, and it actually leads to disharmony and fighting and bad things. So you start writing up contracts and operating agreements, and you see that people then refer back them later, and things are better.

It'd be impossible to evaluate whether "trust people and don't worry about written agreements" or "write down agreements and sign them" is better without data. If you were guessing, you might think the goodwill from the first way is worth the chance of miscommunication or dishonesty. But you'd be wrong. Writing things down is better across the board, does not imply a lack of trust, and in fact leads to better operations and better agreements in most business contexts.

So how do you put an ethical structure together? Slowly, with data. Is it better to trust people and not worry about agreements, or to write things down? Almost always, the latter. I know, because I've been there, and I've seen other people go there. It actually leads to more clarity and less friction and better working relationships.

2. Are your values set for life? If not, how to change them?

No, my values are based on my experiences and my expected outcomes. If my expectations turn out to be false, I change.

I used to believe that marketing was wrong, was evil, was a bad thing, and that substance should win out over style and hype and nonsense. I mean, I really used to believe that strongly, passionately.

No one could convince me otherwise, though I was seeing people who could tastefully promote work and market do better than me and others who wouldn't promote/market.

I was really stubborn about that one for a long time. It took me forever to change my mind. It was only when I learned about Nash Equilibriums that I changed my mind.

Learning about Nash Equilibriums was a crazy paradigm shift for me. It turned the whole world on its head. It answered so many questions.

For instance, if you think that during the Age of Sail it was wrong for merchant companies to force open ports when the locals wanted isolationism and no foreign trade, then you don't understand equilibriums. Here's why - if even a single trading company - just one! - is willing to use arms and force open isolationist ports, then they're going to be able to negotiate trade treaties and monopolies and quickly grow to being the strongest merchant company.

In other words, if it hadn't been the East India Company, it would have been someone else. It was almost guaranteed by the nature of technology and the landscape of the day. "Respecting isolationism" was not really a viable ethical strategy, because if even 2% of the merchant companies didn't (that's only 1 out of 50), that 2% would have massive opportunities and victories and profitability, and grow to be the largest company. Due to the hostilities during different eras between the Spanish, Portugese, Dutch, French, English, and others, there was no authority strong enough to enforce some benevolent neutrality.

Thus, I don't think "respecting isolationism" can really be a viable position to take, because the end outcome will be the same... if not your merchant company, then another one. And if only the decent, well-meaning companies refrain from opening closed ports, then it's the most vicious that succeed in doing so and come to power.

So, marketing - marketing happens, it exists, and someone's going to do it. Now, there's things I won't do because of my personal opposition to them, but in a world where marketing and advertising exists, you need to do it because that's the equilibrium. If you fight against equilibriums, you lose.

As for changing your values, you'll want to constantly get exposure to new ideas and get a better understanding of how things actually work in the real world over time. Previously I thought something like, "Most marketing and advertising is only something that bad people do, so I won't do it" to "Marketing and advertising is part of the landscape, it's going to happen regardless of how I feel about it, so the best produces and services should be marketed and succeed and reach people." (I'm simplifying a little, my views were a bit more complex than that and are a bit more complex than it now, but that's the gist of it)

3. Why not just become a complete hedonist?

Ah, so I haven't mentioned my core ethic yet. My core ethic, my overwhelming goal, is expansion of the human race as a whole. I think we should turn all the unalive matter in the universe into live, settle other planets in the Solar System, then other systems, then other galaxies if possible. Technology, science, medicine, commerce, trade, business, governance, law - when good, this helps us expand.

I'm for population growth, and more people. And ideally, people getting better over time. Healthier, smarter, more disciplined and hard working, better control over emotions, etc, etc, etc.

How I got here is complex, it would be a long discussion. But to answer your question of "Why not be a hedonist?" I answer - because really, who gives a shit about having more serotonin and dopamine in your brain?

Learning a little neurochemistry went a long way for me in defining ethics. Low happinesses are just a mix of biochemicals that humans enjoy. Do you know how cocaine works? It's a triple reuptake inhibitor, which means some of your pleasant biochemicals kind of pool in your brain instead of getting dispersed.

When someone's goal is to get more serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine pooled in their brain, I think... wow, that's it?

To be quite frank, I don't think I'm particularly a big deal and I don't think my pleasure on any short term timescale is a big deal. I look at the extremely long odds that life had of being created on Earth, and of our species getting to where we are... and I think, y'know, I'm going to continue building this chain out. More humans, more technology, settling more area, harnessing and molding more energy and matter to suit human purposes.

I do differentiate personally between "low happinesses" and "high happinesses" - this isn't ultra-scientific, just how I personally think about it. Low happinesses like contentment, sensory pleasure, etc... I don't think those are important to pursue.

High happinesses - triumph, camaraderie, epiphany, wisdom - those I think are worth pursuing.

Now, this is where things conveniently line up nicely. High happinesses - triumph, camaraderie, epiphany - they happen to line up very nicely with my core goal of the expansion of humanity. There's no real conflict there, so I'm not forced to choose.

The low happinesses do frequently conflict with expansion, and also conflict with the high happinesses...

To that end, I say that you need enough low happiness to function. I actually rate it as very important - easily as important as having good respiration or circulation. Without enough low happiness, you stop functioning well. With none at all, you die sooner or later.

So it's really important! Don't get me wrong, I think it's as important as your blood circulation or breathing/respiration. But as the meaning of life...? Well, I think that's kind of laughable. Lots of smart people disagree with me on this, so don't just take my word for it. But hedonism as a life goal... it just seems nuts to me.

4. Even if you delay gratification, you are still a hedonist if what you do is for yourself. And if not for yourself, for whom?

So, earlier you asked, "How do you get your ethics down?" And I answered slowly, and with study of the world.

One thing that helps a lot is to study alternative ethical systems, ideally by immersion.

For instance, the Japanese view of work, or the Vietnamese view of the value of life... I could maybe describe them in text, but it'd be hard to do. To some extent, you've really got to experience it.

And when you do, it's easy to think, "Huh, I didn't even realize that I had the American view of work... I thought that was just the way things are, not just how my culture does it. Huh."

Depending on how much you've traveled and studied different eras of history, you probably have lots of views about "the way things are"... that isn't actually the way things are. Just your culture at this particular moment in history, but everyone thinks their culture is "the way things are."

So, if not for myself, then for whom? Well, I'd recommend you study some other cultures. I personally am really, really grateful for the chain of ancestors that came before me, that brutally struggled and suffered and scrapped and scratched and clawed forwards to create the next generation and protect them long enough for them to live and thrive.

Y'know, when I hear people trash their parents, it shocks me. They created you! That's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you!

Even the worst, most terrible parents in the world did something really amazing for their kids - they created them.

Thus, I do feel some gratitude and a bit of a debt to all those who came before, and part of that debt is continuing the line of life forwards. Y'know how hard it was for people to have and raise kids throughout history? When I hear people saying they don't want kids, not because they're working on world-changing stuff like Albert Einstein, but just because they think they'd be happier without kids... I don't know man, it shocks me. There's been a chain of people brutally struggling and striving forwards throughout history, and you're comfortable breaking that chain? That's... that's... well, that's something I'm not comfortable doing.

So, I do feel a bit of a debt to my ancestors. Life grows, or life dies. I'm a believer in life, and growing. Just as my personal preference, I rate humanity-as-a-whole as higher than any other species yet discovered, and I've got humanity's back, generally speaking.

I don't mind suffering. I'll be alive, I don't know, 50 years, 70 years, 100 years, whatever. I'm going to try to live as long as I can, and I've got a tentative goal of 110 years, but who knows.

Does getting a nice mix of dopamine and serotonin during those 100 years matter for me? I'm just one little organism, one human, amongst the vast expanse of time and space in all directions. I don't mind suffering, and I put myself under lots of suffering to build my capabilities, to create, to do more... I'm not always able to reach my objectives, but happiness? Pfft.

Ah, don't get me wrong. You need base happiness like you need good bloodflow and oxygen and things like that. But yes, I do rate things much more highly than myself, and especially more highly than my own pleasure. I mean, pleasure? As a goal? Seriously? Really?

5. It's a frustrating problem for me, and to it I attribute my general lack of direction and inertia. ... I would appreciate, and be interested in, any perspective you may be able to offer.

I wrote another entry called "Don’t know what you’re doing with your life?" which answers a similar question.

Basically, I would start with the assumption that you're going to find something very meaningful for you sooner or later, and that you'll be grateful at that point if you have resources, skills, ability, connections with people you respect, things like that.

Here's what I wrote in Don't Know What You're Doing? -

There’s not so much detail in your email for me to give precise advice, but I think all of the following are useful to more or less extent:

*Starting to study and develop your own ethical system
*Making good friends, advisors, and mentors who are strong and decent people
*Learning universally useful skills
*A few credentials
*Putting money in the bank
*Getting your credit up
*Studying history to learn what’s possible
*Establishing good habits that’ll carry you through life
*Becoming very fit and healthy
*Learning how to think

…and so on.

I think it's rare that you find an answer to all of life's questions... even if you convert to an established religion, there's still near infinite amounts of judgment calls you've got to make on your own and answer for yourself.

So, don't put off building good stuff because you're not sure why you're building. Build now, and I promise you'll be really happy with yourself later for having built.

I will suggest that you always try to understand how things actually happen in reality. It's hard to make an ethical case for a particular action if you're just guessing what will happen after taking that action. So, definitely study how things work, and experience different things.

I'd recommend you travel to different cultures and get some immersion in them as soon as feasible. You might consider going somewhere in the developing world where life is cheap, there is no rule of law, and basic stuff you take for granted doesn't exist. (Though, be careful if you do) That's a perspective-changer. Japan is a perspective-changer for almost anyone. You might consider having some good, long conversations with intelligent people who are devout in the various organized religions.

Perhaps study societies that were highly successful, and try to understand their ethics. Confucianism is very interesting and has influenced in me in a number of ways, Japanese bushido/samurai philosophy is interesting and has influenced me, Roman history. The various Middle Eastern, Persian, Arabic, and Turkish empires and the life in those, the Jewish Empires before the diaspora. Obviously late Roman Republic/Early Roman Empire has a lot of value, as does the British Empire.

But while you're learning, start building. Eventually you're going to find causes that matter to you, and you're going to be happy that you're more skilled, more disciplined, more connected, and have more experiences and resources when you do.